Well just like in the real world in which the prop was made, the killer could had said it was for a movie. I agree, maybe it points to that john doe isnt really some servant of god and on gods mission like he leads you to believe in the cop car ride but rather has his own severe mental problems and really is just forcing stuff, like the sloth, instead of being on some sort of divine mission. Also, John mentions about the Pride victim that she was "so ugly on the inside (that) she couldn't bear to go on living if she couldn't be beautiful on the outside", implying that he knew her personally, and she wasn't selected shortly before. In the back half of Se7en, Detective Mills injures his arm pretty badly after taking a brutal fall in his pursuit of John Doe, and he's seen sporting a pretty gnarly cast on his arm for the rest of the film. I must have seen this movie a dozen times, and the sloth part of the movie still blows my mind. In short; Tracy told John Doe she was pregnant. External Reviews Consequently, it seems fair to presume they live in NYC, as Tracy Mills mentions to Somerset that she and David had lived "upstate", and few other metropolitan areas speak of "upstate" in the same manner as New York. The crimes of Kevin Spacey's John Doe are particularly heinous and disturbing, with each one based on a different facet of the seven deadly sins. During their pursuit of John Doe, it's natural that Detective Mills and Detective Somerset brainstormed what exactly the motives behind these crimes could be. All of the other deaths are just shown after the murders have already occurred, but even the aftermath is more than grisly enough to satisfy even the most seasoned horror fan. In case the title of the film and the entire plot didn't get the point across, the number seven has a lot of significance within the movie. Keep in mind, Mills asks "He ate until he burst?" The writer of the film did live in New York at the time that he was writing it, though. And they said, 'Oh, my God, thats creepy.' The film was shot, however, at several locations in Los Angeles and near Lancaster, CA. However I would say yes, don't think about it so muchthe film is 25 years old nowthere are bound to be some plot holes. Victor was attacked and kidnapped by John Doe, who later strapped him to a bed and inflicted countless injuries on him, even severing his hand. There are also Seven Holy Virtues which directly contradict each of the Sins. You can expect five more of these." William Somerset. | Edit, They are the most deadly vices, according to Pope Gregory the Great in the 6th century. Press J to jump to the feed. Remember that the reason the police are visiting the Sloth victim are because his fingerprints were identified at the Greed murder scene. MacKay insists that an unsuspecting McGinley'sreal shock at hisfirst move was capturedinthe first take: "I did scare the (stuff) out of him. Following a trail of murders based on each of the seven deadly sins eventually leads Mills and Somerset to John Doe (Kevin Spacey), who has yet to finish his plan. The final two victims are only revealed after Doe's arrest. Victor, the third victim (Sloth), was tied to his bed for exactly a year; keeping a person alive and hidden for that amount of time implies an enormous amount of preparation as well as dedication. The nature ofSe7en's city is used by Doe to justify his crimes, as its people are deemed apathetic, and the murders are intended to shock them into creating a better world. ", 'The Devil All the Time':You can't pray away Harry Melling's crawling spider sermon. He should represent slothness (even this sin as a description isn't exactly clear)whatever that means. Sloth is one of the seven deadly sins in Christian moral tradition, particularly within Catholicism, that refers to laziness. Sloth means spiritual laziness. And in his masterpiece the mills who e is driven to wrath , vs that being his everyday sin circumstantial sin in the moment .unlike his other victims mills survived. It's said that the Gluttony victim's stomach "burst" but, when he's found, his abdomen clearly isn't open and none of his internal organs seem to be hanging out. Some of the colorful headlines that grace the page include "Housekeeper Held Hostage By Child's Possessed Gerbil Three Days of Terror" as well as "Neighbors Beagle scares teen cures 8-year bout with hiccups." in the last scene, Tracy died by Doe's jealousy hence "envy" then Doe died by Mills' hatred hence "wrath" Share Improve this answer Follow answered Jan 27, 2015 at 22:17 Gab 21 1 Add a comment 0 It has also been speculated that the city represents a ruinedGarden of Eden(or a Paradise Lost, as Doe often refers to it), with the killer seemingly believing that mankind's sins are to blame for the state ofSe7en's city. Se7en is a legendary horror film for a whole lot of reasons, but the most memorable aspect of the film in most people's minds is obviously the whole "what's in the box" moment. To cast the role of a victim who was chained to a bed and starved, producers had only two criteria: the ability to lay . ncdu: What's going on with this second size column? The Sloth death isn't exactly cleargenerally we're supposed to assume that deaths to the victims are supposed to be a sort of'poetic' justice and a part of John Doe's larger spectacle and how each represents their respective sin. Humongous cave bears, saber-toothed tigers, and massive-antlered Irish elk roam the grasslands and forests of South America, but the biggest of all is the Megatherium, an elephant-sized ground sloth. That said, abusing children seems like more than spiritual apathy its a much more direct and active type of crime, and it feels like it would have been more firmly rooted in lust. From what I gather in popular culture, it works in a fairly simple manner: a few people show up, pay you a large amount of money, and then leave. "I get that a lot. User Ratings However Mills getting hurt during the chase scene was actually a part of the script already, so it sort of worked out. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. It only takes a minute to sign up. The-Se7en Wiki is a FANDOM Movies Community. The next sin is lust - Doe forces a man at gunpoint to rape an unnamed sex worker using a bladed implement. I think Doe chose Victor, a pederast and drug dealer as a victim because honest work is hard to do and requirse a lot of effort. That guy was way too fucking thin to be alive. Se7en'sfirst sin is gluttony, and it's at this crime scene that Mills and Somerset first meet. This suggests that John Doe already selected Victor and began planning his entire work well before he captured him. However, the movie actually never directly states where it's taking place, and it would seem that the filmmakers went out of their way to keep that ambiguity alive since none of the props give any concrete evidence either. Much like the endings to otherDavid Fincher movies,Se7en's final moments leave its ending relatively open to interpretation, but the Hemingway quote implies that Somerset has decided to fight for the world, even though it isn't the fine place Hemingway believed it to be. Sloth is defined as spiritual or emotional apathy, neglecting what God has spoken, and being physically and emotionally inactive. And with each victim discovered, we are allowed only the aftermath. He was tied to his bed for an entire year, kept at the brink of survival only through the judicious usage of intravenous drugs and medications, the experience of which causes him untold physical anguish and renders him completely insane. The film's ambiguous setting and regular references to what an awful place it is are significant to its story, as it's effectively used to conjure the image of purgatory. I think that's also the most fucked up deat. Was it common to switch knives and forks from left to right hands? So clearly John Doe (Kevin Spacey) has a plan of killing seven different people based on the Seven Deadly Sins. Doe explains to Mills that he tried to live out his normal life of being happily married and in love with a. Se7en has really grown on me over the years. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. He was convicted with having sex with an underage girl, which would lead one to assume lust might be a more appropriate sin. 2. I do not think the movie is bad because its as old as my nieces and nephews nor do i think its bad at all. Pitt and . -1 for this. When I first watched it I jumped so high I could've landed on the moon. It literally makes them experience time slowed down. And how much would they charge? To be honest though, I stumbled on this blog looking for more theories about the research into the victims deterioration. He's in . He had to have known nothing good was going to come of it. Falling into his desires of raping children is a form of mental sloth. ". Both believe they live in a Crapsack World, but Doe believes that because he is a completely egotistical bastard who ignores his . It was so fast. Edit, Two detectives, William Somerset (Morgan Freeman) and David Mills (Brad Pitt), search for a serial killer who bases each kill on one of the seven deadly sins. Is it suspicious or odd to stand by the gate of a GA airport watching the planes? Edit, Se7en is based on a script by American screenwriter Andrew Kevin Walker. I think part of the genius of Se7en is the fact that John Doe doesn't necessarily have "rules" per se. He cut off her fucking nose! John further explains how Tracy begged for her life and the life of the child inside her then realizes that Mills didn't even know she was pregnant. We don't know very much with him, besides he was forced on drugs and rotted away in bed for a year or something. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. Though he's not killed like Doe's other victims, Mills is still a victim because of the long-term psychological effects of the ordeal. He dealt drugs, so he earned a living (even a criminal one). The-Se7en Wiki is a FANDOM Movies Community. How was that anywhere near as bad as the sloth victim? "And Iwas like, 'How did youknow it was me? By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. According to Christian tradition the seven deadly sins are: envy, gluttony, greed or avarice, lust, pride, sloth, and wrath. I dont know, maybe she was a unnecessarily nasty person inside and deserved it. Envy is jealousy. Also given that its almost constantly raining throughout the film, they likely had rain machines. Lust may be specifically seen as excessive thoughts or desires of a sexual nature, which can manifest as sexual addiction, fornication, adultery, bestiality, rape, perversion, and incest. With Morgan Freeman, Kevin Spacey, and Gwyneth Paltrow rounding out the film's central cast, David Fincher'sSe7en serves as a lasting example of achieving a tightly-packed modern noir thriller. Doe's next victim is Eli Gould, a criminal defense attorney forced to cut off a pound of his own flesh, representing the sin of greed in the style of The Merchant of Venice. Heroin junkies shoot up and then just lie around lazily feeling the effects. Se7en film location: the first victim - 'Gluttony': Beacon Avenue, Westlake, Downtown Los Angeles. Good grief. Again I was baffled. Thanks Casper. Mills taunts him by saying that he has delusions of grandeur, but Somerset says very little. I think se7en suffers because every serial killer movie since has been trying to ape it at the time, the only film that really felt similar was The Silence of the Lambs, but now films like that are a dime a dozen. The manipulator had placed an IV in Victor's arm to provide him with just enough . For greed, he killed a lawyer. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. But thatwas me. It has none of the stylistic polished way of his later films. However, the movie was subsequently novelized by Anthony Bruno and published in 1995. Transported to the appropriately dank Los Angeles location setin full makeup, MacKay recalls Freeman spotting him and saying,"You don't look so good. He then incites Detective David Mills (Brad Pitt) to kill him and become 'Wrath' in the process, which Mills clearly does. The driver claims that he was just delivering a package for Detective David Mills. Why would someone even make something like that? Victor was discovered by police exactly a year after his kidnapping, after John Doe used his hand while killing Greed. He wanted a normal family life like Mills had; when Tracy Mills (Gwyneth Paltrow) refused to go along with him, he killed her, making her a victim of Envy, her death off-screen and her unseen, decapitated head mailed to Mills and Somerset in the desert. His sins werent overtly passive (like our modern view of sloth) but they were easy choices to make that avoided the overt difficulty of virtue. Doe probably also had his eye on Eli Gould, the second victim (Greed), because he was the one who kept Victor out of jail. What is the relationship between Betty and Gilbert and how is her husband involved? What was the ending of Night Moves about? The giant sloth Megatherium is most likely extinct due to climate change and human hunting, but scientists don't know for sure. "I Simply Am Not There": The Existential Horror of Eighties Excess in "American Psycho" "Anything Goes!" I asked myself If I was writing the book, what occupation or personal day choose to represent sloth? Somerset opens the package and steps back in horror. Choosing being a criminal and to rape children is easy to do, because he chooses not to work hard and prefers to make money in the easy way, meaning forms of both physical and mental sloth. Hello, well technically the term sloth as a sin, encompasses not only laziness, but idling and wasting your life away, without doing anything substantial. Also, when Mills and Somerset are in a diner, you can see an advertisement for "New York Pizza." Plus the salaries of actors, directors, producers, film crew etc.. plus props, makeup, and so on. Se7en is a creative and bold film with an ending so shocking that it still hasn't lost its luster. | Eventually, John announces that they have reached the spot, and the car pulls over near some high-tension electrical wires. I googled the question..why was the junkie picked to represent sloth in the move se7en? However, the guy locked in his apartment (and, about a year afterwards, inside his own head), doesnt appear to have been especially slothful. Doe shows this by having a person 'presumably' be able to escape, but does not and simple wastes his body and brain. Although it could be argued that drug dealer could induce sloth (laziness or idleness) to his clients (assuming they bought downers and pot versus speed etc) or that the victims lack of employment (leads him to sin of dealing drugs and molestation), the victim is not a strong depiction of sloth (someone smoking pot to extreme or other example of extreme idleness would be). But in real life, John Hinckley Jr. shot (but didn't kill) President Ronald Reagan and said that he did it because of his obsession with Jodie Foster. I love those kinds of details in films. Sloth is defined as spiritual or emotional apathy, neglecting what God has spoken, and being physically and emotionally inactive. When they were filming the scene where the police discover the "sloth" victim, the members of the SWAT team weren't told that the victim was supposed to still be alive, so their reaction when he starts moving is real. In the film, he was portrayed by Michael Reid MacKay, who also played The Mummy in Monster Squad, The Man Who Can't Breathe in Insidious: Chapter Three, Bane (prior to being mutated with Venom) in . 'Almost Famous' turns 20:Where are Billy Crudup, Kate Hudson, Patrick Fugit now? Related:SpongeBob SquarePants' Super Dark Se7en Easter Egg Explained. Slade chooses the latter and becomes Doe's fifth murder victim, representing the sin of pride. I suppose drug dealing is a lazy way to make money, but child abuse doesnt seem slothful. What strange movie questions bother you? Scrolled and searched for comments about the effects of hardcore drugs in relation to Sevens sloth and I wasnt fucking disappointed. But I even scared myself.". After Mills and Somerset discover the "sloth" victim they're accosted in a stairwell by a photographer. Would Mills have gone to prison for shooting and killing John Doe? Who was originally considered for the role of John Doe? To me, the motivations of John Doe never made sense. Most likely, giant sloths went extinct because the climate changed, and humans hunted them. Mills killing John Doe is more significant than simply being the seventh murder and the representation of wrath. This is the one flag Ive noticed in the film, its a great movie, but the drug dealer wasnt a sloth until john doe made him one, which kid of defeats the moral mission john doe is on but rather just paints him as a mentally Ill homicidal maniac. As for this movie se7en not the greatest. The cast is outstanding, the bizarre mystery gut-wrenching, and the direction impeccable. Filed under: Movies | Tagged: crime, film, john doe, kevin spacey, Movie, murder, se7en, serial killer, seven, Seven deadly sins, Sloth |. During their conversation when Doe calls his apartment and talks to Mills, he says "I'm moving up my timetable in light of today's little setback" indicating that he likely altered his plans to include Mills.It is more difficult to determine when the other victims were selected. Mills' murder of Doe brings him down to the killer's level, which by Doe's own logic proves that no one, even the most admirable person, is above sin. Maybe because I've only seen the movie on TNT. Se7en Plot Synopsis. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. Yeah I can definitely see Fincher doing a zombie movie. The film's leading cast includes Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman, Kevin Spacey and Gwyneth Paltrow. rev2023.3.3.43278. Doe meets up with Mills at the scene of the Sloth murder, and personally experiences Mills' violent temper which would make him the ideal candidate; later, Doe has the opportunity to kill Mills in the alley, but doesn't, probably to preserve him for becoming the seventh victim. In most cases, its a fairly obvious example of that sin. Se7en's "Sloth" was a very, very underweight young man. The film actually rewards repeated viewings, which is nice, but I couldnt stop a particular question from popping into my mind as I watched the film again. If your an attractive person, and offered a career to Modelwho wouldnt be tempted to take advantage of that opportunity? I'm just glad the film dedicated so little time to that one. Edit, John Doe mentions to Mills and Somerset that Tracy begged him for her life and for the life of the unborn child inside her. Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. The sloth scene was also pretty goddamn haunting . For lust, he had another person kill a prostitute. MacKay saw "Seven" with a friend and "both of us jumped up when I moved onscreen, as did everyone else in the theater. I agree with the second part." 2023 USA TODAY, a division of Gannett Satellite Information Network, LLC. So basically because she was beautiful she had to be taught a lesson? Itfelt so good to go home andget a shower. There is a picture of the fourth victim (Lust) in John's house, which may imply he had his eye on her some time, but without an indication of when it was taken, there is no sure way to tell. How do I connect these two faces together? A drug dealing pedophile is a perfect example of someone rejecting their moral or spiritual obligations. But Im sure you get the gist of it. That being said, Ive never really understood the appeal of Se7en. Does the movie give any clues as to Mills fate? "It was so visually arrestingthat itjust looked fake," McGinley recalls. ", "That cracked me up," says MacKay. Why? Following this, Doe moves on to pride, the fifth sin, and his next victim is a model named Rachel Slade. Niall can be found on Twitter @lordofthegray. Hope that helps! Are used voice text on my previous comment. Did Maester Luwin really believe that sorcery and magic is no more? The movie was filmed in LA I believe. Submissions should be for the purpose of informing or initiating a discussion, not just to entertain readers. Which is to me just as (if not more) sadistic than John Does okay, youre dead in a horrific manner. Not that either option is anything less than horrifying. So he planned to use the wife of whatever detective it will be. Police also discovered numerous polaroid photos depicting Victor as his condition worsened throughout the year. If you go back to the scene where Pitt and Freeman search Johns apartment you will see a newspaper clipping that reads something like Lawyer sets free pedophile, public is outraged and John circles Lawyer and pedophile. I didnt proofread it before I sent it. Edit, It may differ from victim to victim, but a significant amount of planning for at least two victims may be assumed. RIGHT!? John Doe tells Mills that he killed Tracy out of envy and "took her pretty head." A crime thriller in which the villain wins is a relatively rare phenomenon, but it cementsSe7en's place as a true great of modern cinema. the fat guy died by eating, the whore by sex, the junkie by lying in bed. Edit, First, Gluttony was wearing a shirt, so we couldn't see very well under the table to notice whether or not his abdomen had actually broken open. Although Kevin Spacey is obviously the biggest name actor to appear in the film behind Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman, his presence in the film was a total surprise. The Megatherium was one of the largest ground mammals ever to have existed. (LogOut/ This is, literally, the exact same issue I had with the movie. -1 for reading skills. Im really curious how accurate Finchers depiction of the victim is. However, with one big exception towards the end of the film, Doe doesnt appear to force the sin he punishes on to the victim in the first place he just exacts a sort of poetic justice. As a rule, looking at the majority of the victims, the sin is major part of their lifestyle before they meet John Doe. He didnt directly kill him by imposing sloth upon him, he forced him to live the sloth lifestyle for ages and then he died. "Sloth," as it was understood by the early theologians who formulated the seven deadly sins, is called "Socordia" or "akedia" in Latin and Greek respectively and referred to the idea of failing to foster or develop spiritual virtue because it is difficult or taxing. YMMV /. By killing Doe, Mills fulfills the killer's plan, making Doe victorious even in death. Love this movie a tonne. This actually paints Somerset as representingSe7en's final (and eighth) sin: apathy. Fair enough. When some one never washes their smell can literally last for days. She probably swallowed the pills and chased them down with her own blood. The "Pride" victim was a model (Heidi Schanz) whose nose was cut off, disfiguring her. He is tied to his bed and barely alive. John Doe's plan sees Somerset continue in his role as a detective, effectively trapping him in purgatory and making him the film's final victim. But like any movie that is this thought out and detailed, there are dozens of little Easter eggs and tidbits that the average audience member would never notice. (These days, he says, he's"a whopping" 108 pounds.). Had he just been a user, perhaps it would seem a better fit its easy to picture a zoned-out stoner as the very embodiment of sloth, sitting there and doing nothing all day occasionally giggling uncontrollably to childrens television. So was he wearing a strapon with a knife at the end and fucked the prostitute to death? This is just one of those minor little questions that occurs to me on watching a film like this. I honestly never really understood that scene. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. But to enrage him, he needed to hurt him really bad. Learn how your comment data is processed. "So I turned slowly and stared into the camera. (LogOut/ The greed guy was fat. But again, it feels like the story is there to only live up to the premise of what if there is a serial killer who murders are based on the 7 deadly sins? In other words, it feels fairly straightforward and arguably predictable (other than ending, I suppose). The goal of /r/Movies is to provide an inclusive place for discussions and news about films with major releases. Then I too thought oooohh she must of used the blood rushing out of her nose. They walk back along the road for a few yards until Somerset notices a white van approaching them. Meanwhile, John is telling Mills how much he admires him and envies the life he has made for himself, so much that he went to Mills' home that morning and tried to play husband with Tracy. ", Director David Fincher's most physically horrifying "Seven" casualty, and most memorable jump, was played by a real human. Religious views concerning the need for one to work to support society and further God's plan and work also suggest that, through inactivity, one invites the desire to sin. This is further proven by Somerset's decision not to retire, as he's shocked out of his apathy, which is referred to in an earlier scene where he discusses his reasons for retiring with Mills. Indeed, in John's home, several newspaper clippings can be seen on a cupboard that describe Eli Gould defending Victor and getting him an acquittal, so this may have been how John Doe selected them.Which brings us to the seventh victim. Brad Pitt's Detective Millsthen kills Doe, making Doe the sixth victim (representing envy) and ensuring Mills becomes the embodiment of the final sin (wrath). ", McGinley calls the finalscene "plain horrifying." On the other hand, I suppose, as I sit here thinking about it, you could argue that John Doe wouldnt consider selling drugs to be a job at all. Mills' "simple" life. The quote, coupled with Somerset assuring his captain that he'll "be around," evidences that he no longer intends to retire as he did before. I guess because the chick was some Supermodel or actress or whatever she was guilty of pride? Somerset tries to get Mills to hand over his gun, but Mills goes crazy and shoots John six times. Thoughthe film's ending leaves its narrative open, there's no need for a sequel toSe7en. Doe's own motivations were to shock the world out of its own apathy, and in forcing Mills' hand, he's able to do so, albeit in a small way. In the final scene, Mills is seated in the back seat of a squad car. Sloth Crime Scene. William Somerset and John Doe are different takes on the Only Sane Man, knowing well how bad the world is, but differ on how they deal with it (which essentially makes Doe Somerset's Evil Counterpart ). By the film's end, the events ofSe7en haveinspiredan obvious change in Detective Mills, but the final line of the film actually evidences a significant change in Somerset, too. Thanks, Pat. They spend much of their lives in the canopy, snoozing and remaining hidden from predators. Single gsw. Am I thinking about this too much? Thats how I found this arcticle. It is reasonable to assume that Mills was selected "on the spot". "And David Fincher told me, 'You look horrific, it's great.' With John Doe in custody, Mills and Somerset agree to be led to the final two victims, only for Doe to reveal himself as the first and Mills as the second. Sorry. Remember that the reason the police are visiting the Sloth victim are because his fingerprints were identified at the Greed murder scene. The Curious, Qualified Appeal of "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" 12 Movie Moments of 2012: We Built This City (Rock of Ages), Screenwriter (Donald Clarke, Irish Times). "Im pretty proud of it. Se7en's "what's in the box?" Actor Michael Reid Mackay, 5-foot-5, often hiredfor his slight appearance, weighed about 96pounds during the shoot. The SLOTH victim, exactly why was he to be tortured to death "this" way? A professional gambler was the best I can come up with. But good luck convincing him of that. Doe mutilates Slade's face, then gives her the option of calling for help and living with her disfigurement or ending her own life with an overdose of sleeping pills. Are we supposed to know what happened to his left hand, and what exactly are those tubes in his right arm? Detective Mills is "Wrath"; when John Doe reveals what he has done to Tracy, Mills becomes enraged and shoots John Doe, making him the fatality of the sin Wrath. There were several species of giant sloths, but the largest was Megatherium Americanum. Seven in the movie se7en refers to the the 7 deadly sins that people should not commit. After spending his formative years soaking in as much pop culture trivia as possible, Niall started writing about film online in 2020, and contributes to numerous websites.